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Please.
Echidnicity
They both replied: It's actually made me feel embarrassed and ashamed.
There are perfectly good reasons to celebrate Australia Day. For instance, the fact that Australia is a peaceful, stable, and wealthy democracy, and to express and affirm our part in the nation.
As an Aussie by choice rather than an accident of birth I think that there certainly are more things to celebrate than to regret, Tim Flannery at least had the good grace to respect the honour he was given. Where as Mick Dodson is trying to attack the very day that has bought him the honour. Which is very bad form in my book.
And apparently people who drive Utes and/or Panelvans.
Why shouldn't Dodson criticise the timing and placement of Australia Day, given that it signifies the invasion of the country by Europeans, and suggest we should pick a date that signifies something much more inclusive. Pity that we federated on New Year's Day, which is already a holiday, because otherwise that'd be a much better pick.
I don't mind celebrating our good fortune at the country whose fruits we've been fortunate enough to enjoy, and to reaffirm our determination to work towards making it an even better place to live - but I do have a problem with this whole "rah rah we're the best" stuff, which people should've grown out of by the end of primary school.
NOG - "As an immigrant to Australia, I'm damn proud of the nation that gave us a good turn. Not to mention its greatest asset, its friendly and helpful people."
I'm not sure why you should be "proud" of something you found when you came here, unless you're "proud" of your good decision-making in picking a wealthy, comfortable, stable, relatively free place in which to live. Of course, there are countless other people who'd love to make the same decision, if we'd let them come...
"Could't think of a mass of starving children in a failed state somewhere who wouldn't wish to be Australian."
Wouldn't wish to live in Australia, you mean - not quite the same thing. And of course they would; they've missed out on the benefits we inherited.
"You remind one of a spoilt kid, handed a shiny new toy, who tosses it away not appreciating its significance."
I don't see how that makes any sense - what am I "tossing away"?
I am more than cognisant of my good fortune to live here - hence my mockery of those who pretend it's something they've earned or that they deserve or that makes them better than other people living elsewhere in the world.
It wasn't an invasion, Jeremy. The English did not turn up to Australia with guns Blazing.
It was a colonization, they are two different things. English settlers were welcomed by Aboriginals and lived alongside them. Does that really sound like an "Invasion"?
"Invasion" is a deliberately emotive word used by separatists to create disharmony. That is why white supremacists use the very same word to describe the immigration of non-white people to modern Australia.
And haven't the native people of whatever country or territory England decided to "conolize" next benefited from that! No harm has ever come of the old English determination to build their Empire ever larger and stronger, has it?
I don't know why we can't celebrate Australia Day and also acknowledge that some of the things the English did when they "colonized" this country were fairly ruthless and narrow-minded. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.
And Jeremy, I think your generalisation that people who celebrate Australia day or display a flag are some kind of nationalistic buffoon just as offensive as I do when I see one of those "If you don't love it, leave" stickers on the back of a car aimed at immigrants, like me, who have the "cheek" to criticise things they don't agree with.
Just because some morons have Aussie flags doesn't mean everyone who has one is a moron.
Now that you mention it, yes. The vast majority of countries that were colonised by the British Empire are far better off than neighboring countries that were not. The vast majority of ex-British Colonies decided to keep going with British common law and customs after they gained independence. The ones that chose to go back their old ways have become basket cases.
Compare Aboriginal Australians living today with Aboriginal People of Papua New Guinea (which was never colonised). The people of Papua New Guinea face all the same problems of modern Aboriginal Australians, but with none of the benefits of an economically successful nation to help alleviate them.
No harm has ever come of the old English determination to build their Empire ever larger and stronger, has it?
The biggest harm that came to Australia was the introduction of diseases that Aboriginal Australians had no immunity to, especially Smallpox. Smallpox alone killed close to 50% of the original Aboriginal population of Australia.
However, this would have happened whether the English visit was a permanent one or simply a short trade visit. So you can hardly call it a consequence of colonisation in particular, it would have happened whether Australia was permanently colonised or not.
Pre-European Aboriginal people were not isolationists, they sought out and welcomed trade with seafaring people (in the North of Australia for hundreds of years before white settlement, and readily and eagerly in the rest of Australia when the British came). These trade routes would have eventually resulted in Smallpox being delivered here even without permanent settlement.
As I said, some of the things the English did when they colonized countries were ruthless and narrow-minded. I don't see why we can't acknowledge that and celebrate how far this country has come.
What a great pity about those few Australians who don't appreciate how lucky they are.
Yaaay, let's bag the day.
Could't think of a mass of starving children in a failed state somewhere who wouldn't wish to be Australian.
Good on you Jeremy.
You remind one of a spoilt kid, handed a shiny new toy, who tosses it away not appreciating its significance.
Or the teenager of rich parents who, so used just taking the spoils of their good fortune and others' hard work, dumps mum's sentimental gift away without appreciatign its REAL value.
Way to go.
If you need the details... During the ceremony the politicians spoke of multiculturalism, whilst the ceremony itself was completely anglocentric in the selection of the songs that were played by the band (including some british military marches). My friends also said that the way the councillors stressed the importance of democracy and voting again and again during the ceremony made them feel like they were begging for votes in order to maintain their positions of privilege. Finally, they said that the patriotic and nationalistic fervour in the speeches of the councillors made them sick.
You may disagree with all those things, you may look at them a different way. But, the way my friends see it, and here I include myself, nationalism and patriotism are always divisive, putting "us" against "them", who are always lesser and more "uncivilised". There's nothing wrong with being proud of where you live and your identity, but the way those feelings and emotions are used by those in power are very dangerous.
This is getting too long but let me briefly share with you two other thoughts:
Australia does not have a democracy, it never has and it never will. The fact that there are some political parties, some independent politicians, and regular elections does not mean that what we have here is a democracy. For a system to be properly and truly democratic, you would need to fulfil certain conditions that no democracy in the world actually fulfils. What you have is a very narrow set of options from wealthy people who distort and silence most real issues so citizens cast uniformed votes that perpetuate this very rewarding system for a selected few.
And by the way, Australia Day celebrates the day when the ships arrived to Australia. Mick Dodson is right in expressing that it is painful day for his people because that's when their world was destroyed and the fight for survival started. If you want to celebrate the pride of being australian I don't think you should do it this day because you're celebrating over a big pool of blood.
I'm sure you'll disagree with a lot of the things I say. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions, and you asked. If you're interested, in more political ramblings that you will probably find strange you can always visit my own blog:
http://themelbournerambler.blogspot.com/
I have to take you to task on this one. Mr Dodson was not attacking the Government or the Australian people. Mr Dodson was pointing out that Australia Day is not a happy day for Aboriginal people. This is because it is the day that the British invaded their home. It would be much better for Australia Day to be on a day that we can all find reason to celebrate. There would be no harm in changing the date and in encouraging a public dialogue on when this date should be.
http://www.sbs.com.au/firstaustralians/
Look up terra nullius someday, yobbo.
Yes, Yobbo, and let's just gloss entirely over the nasty bits where the English weren't all kittens and hugs, shall we?
As I said, some of the things the English did when they colonized countries were ruthless and narrow-minded.
No doubt Kedgie. I'm hardly claiming here that British Society in the 18th century was utopia.
Then again, you don't really seem to consider the fact that pre-colonisation Aboriginal Australian society wasn't all beer and skittles either. A lot of people cling on the noble savage myth that such recently discovered civilisations lived in harmony with nature, ate their huge meals under the stars and laid claim to a sort of spiritual nirvana that our capitalist system has forgotten.
I assure you that life in a pre-colonisation Aboriginal Society would have been nothing of the sort. It was characterised by starvation, ruthless application of capital punishment and revenge killings, disease and isolation.
When talking about the actions of English settlers hundreds of years ago, it pays to remember that nowhere on Earth was a particularly nice place to live 200 years ago. Every society on Earth seems barbaric by modern standards. Trying to hold 1770's settlers to the standards of modern liberal democratic citizens is ridiculous in the extreme.
And also not to forget that the Aboriginal People of Australia gave as good as they got back in those days. it was hardly a case of one side carrying on unprovoked genocide. A large percentage of conflicts were the result of misunderstandings and conflicts between two rivalling legal systems. Both Aboriginals and English settlers were willing to sit down and talk things out, but the problem being that neither side could understand the other's legal system, and both sides came out of discussions feeling that they got a poor deal.
Compare to the Maoris - who were at the time of the Maori wars were not only a more expansive society - a feudal kingdom of sorts, with a standing army of trained military personnel who were capable of negotiating AND enforcing their own laws and treaties with the newly arrived English Settlers. They still had their conflicts of course, but the English were much better able to strike agreements with them because the Maori had a common language and system of codified laws that were much easier for the English to understand than Australian Aboriginal traditions were.
Can't remember claiming that it was, Yobbo. In fact, I know I haven't.
Make your mind up Yobbo.
Unhappily we seem to be going down the slippery American slope of lapel stickpins, and flags on every corner.
White settlers were welcomed on arrival by Aboriginal People. There was no military invasion. It was only a few years later when Aboriginals realised that the settlers were never leaving that conflicts began.
The same pattern that occured in the original Port Jackson colony was repeated in all the new colonies in other states at later dates. Aboriginal people accepted colonists as trading partners to begin with. It was only when settlers decided to put down roots and start fencing off areas of land that the two groups came in to serious conflict.
Just because some morons have Aussie flags doesn't mean everyone who has one is a moron."
Didn't say they were. But I'm yet to see someone in a flag-draped ute who didn't also have a set of dickhead racist stickers accompanying it.
And the one we saw had a Hawthorn sticker as well. Come on.
Now, seriously, the one we saw on Sunday had an Australian flag and hawthorn stickers. No racist slogan. And when we got where we were going, if you recall, my friends 4WD had a flag on it - no racist stickers there, either. Once we got inside, there were Australian flags on the marquee. No racism present, though, was there?
We did see that "Australia, this is how it is, if you don't love it, leave" festooned Ute the other day, but that didn't have an Australian flag on it.
I don't really see the racism in this message.
I understand it perfectly well.
The entire justification for the so called 'colonisation' was the claim of terra nullius.
And?
Without it, it's an invasion - there were already people living here.
The two things are completely unrelated. An invasion is a military offensive. The first fleet was not a military fleet.
The ships carried provisions of gifts that were taken along with the intention of trading with the native inhabitants that they fully expected to meet and trade with.
It's called subtext Yobbo. It's quite clear who the message is aimed at, and what status quo, i.e. "this is how it is", the comment seeks to protect.
However in your desperation to troll this site for reaction you will undoubtedly refuse to recognise this.
I don't necessarily agree with the "love it or leave it" sentiment, Australia is far from perfect. However, I don't see the sentiment as being particularly racist either. It's a cultural statement.
Australians have always been willing to look past racial differences for those assimilate fully into the culture. The real message of this quote is "If you want to live in Australia, act like an Australian".
Favouring cultural integration over multiculturalism is not the same thing as racism. You don't hear many bogans yelling racist insults at Adem Yze or Peter Bell.
I've had people very close to me admit that they think I have less right to "whinge" about politics I disagree with, or systems I have a problem with purely because I wasn't born here. Regardless of the fact that I've probably contributed more in tax than most people my age - and I arrived here before I was legally permitted to work, so I've contributed for as long as others have, the fact that I was born overseas automatically denegrates my rights to be politically active in the eyes of quite a few people.
Fact is, I CHOOSE to be here. I know what it's like to live in other countries, and regardless of whatever faults I perceive in the Australian system, I love Australia and choose to live here and contribute to society.
But according to your "Love it or leave" brigade, I should just keep my mouth shut.
I never said that. I simply said it's not necessarily racist.
And yes, immigrants do have less right to complain. That is why there is a long period between being granted permanent residency status, and being granted citizenships.
Apart from the obvious, people are generally agitated by people who come from countries less successful than Australia, and attempt to tell Australia how to do things better.
Whether that's a muslim immigrant saying Australians should ban alcohol, an French Immigrant saying we should raise the minimum wage, or an American immigrant saying we should relax gun control, many Australians' first reaction is to say "Why? That's the reason your country is so fucked up, and that's why you wanted to come here in the first place!"
In short it's just another way of saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
I didn't say it was racist either, it's not so much racist as xenophobic, then.
At what point does an immigrant cease to be an immigrant, Yobbo? I'm a citizen (although I've retained dual citizenship), I pay my taxes. I've contributed just as much to this country as anyone else my age. Probably more. Do you think tha satisfies the men in the utes? Or my step-grandmother, for that matter, who has one of those signs on her car?
To them, it's just a piece of paper. They don't care that I've put in as much work as they have - probably more - all they care about is the fact that they're "entitled" to complain - even though they're the least likely to do anything practical to change the things that are wrong.
I'm not sure how we're supposed to call ourselves a democracy when whole wedges of society are isolated from being able to participate in the process.
But at least it keeps the "Love it or leave it" lot firm in their sense of superiority.
When they start to think of themselves as Australian rather than a person from x country who just happens to live in Australia.
Personally there's no real reason to take out citizenship unless you feel that way....you don't need it to stay here, citizenship is completely voluntary.
Personally there's no real reason to take out citizenship unless you feel that way....you don't need it to stay here, citizenship is completely voluntary."
Most immigrants (Myself included) would fall somewhere in between those categories. I consider myself both Welsh and Australian. I've lived in Australia for longer than I lived in Wales, but my formative years were spent there. Not to mention the fact that because of the amount of family I have still living in Wales I have important ties to the country.
I don't think I just happen to live in Australia, but nor do I think of myself as exclusively Australian, either.
Citizenship is voluntary, but personally I think we took out citizenship for purely mercinary reasons - Australian passports were cheaper than renewing our British Passports and we didn't have a whole lot of money at the time.
Even happy to help raise the two grand for your one way ticket back 'home'.
I would happily to do all this if we could get rid of another 'mercinary' Anglo citizenship shopper who settled on Australia for convience.
Your place can go straight to a refugee escaping persecution. You know someone who would value the freedoms, protection and safety that comes with being an Australian.
Oh, and if you want to pay two grand for me to get "home" that'd be fine too. Especially considering the difference between a Zone two ticket to my home and two grand. The milky bars are on me!
Just so you know, I never referrred to Wales as home.
God knows what "convience" is, but:
A) Not English, wankstain.
B) We waited four years for residency. Hardly a "shopper"
C) Go fuck yourself.
D) I believe my point was that you can be a committed, worthwhile member of society and still see Citizenship as purely a piece of paper
E) Seriously, go fuck yourself.
When idiots at AWH claim that the leftie elites hate Australia, this is exactly the kind of post they are talking about. Way to mock those who drive utes too. I may drive utes, or think that lambis that great (and let's remember that lamb is considered a rare delicacy in many parts of the world) but if you removed the snarky tone I would agree with many of the statements in the post.
Also your attempt at satire is ham-fisted and obvious. Subtlety is the key.
Because overblown patriotism of the type I'm criticising here is most prominent on Australia Day, obviously.
"When idiots at AWH claim that the leftie elites hate Australia, this is exactly the kind of post they are talking about. "
Only because they're too stupid to distinguish between hatred of Australia, and criticism of the jingoism and nationalism to which some citizens now annually degenerate.
Still, thanks for your measured and constructive feedback, friend.
Hey Surname - do you often allow your emotions to overcome your critical thinking?
Agree with the argument or don't agree with it - but don't get all precious about the tone in which it is made. We're all adults here (I think).
Grow some emotion.
Grow some happiness.
Oh, that's right. Trolls are too busy guarding the bridge for introspection.
That's only one usage. Think of the crowd invading the football field, or the tourist invasion of a holiday area.
If someone suddenly appeared, grabbed my land and bulldozed my church and town hall I know I would chacterise it as an invasion.
I could be - but it isn't.
We all know exactly who the 'love it or leave it' Ute brigade is sending their message to. You don't have to accept that it's a racist slogan Yobbo - but that doesn't change the fact that it is.
In both those cases "Invasion" is being used as a metaphor. It's a very popular metaphor, but a metaphor all the same.
If I didn't give a toss about my adopted country I would disengage from discourse, jump into a ghetto of compatriots and feel superior as I spoke ill of Australians in the Patois of my choice.
As an aside, whilst I find the "Love it or leave it" stickers culturally chauvinistic, it's the ones that depict a map of Australia containing the text "Fuck off, we're full" that I find truly offensive.
Cheers.
Agreed. Well I don't personally find them offensive so much as stupid. Australia certainly isn't full and Migration is a huge net benefit to the country. The people who think we're full are the same people who vote for subsidies for Toyota to make cars they were already going to make.
(Oh, and the Greens).
Wow! Talk about cultural chauvinism!
The kind of people who think that there is nothing broken or in need of fixing in Australia are the kind of nationalistic Candides who are more bane than boon to this country.
I know you don't think that way, Yobbo, but what an odd thing to say!
Yes, of course.
It's all Batik shirts and Credlocks in this crowd.
In the Sydney subrub of Manly, hundreds of youths draped in "Aussie pride" livery wore slogans declaring "f--k off we're full" as they smashed car windows and ran up the famous Corso targeting non-white shop keepers.
Aww! Isn't that sweet!
An Aussie version of the "welcome to country" ceremony.
They leave off Tasmainia.
I was in my car travelling up Main Street (on the way to a certain appointment involving a certain indoor soccer team) when I got a red light at the pedestrian lights on Main Street. About 50 - 70 of these flag-draped, body-painted teenagers (just about all of them males) crossed, doing their chants (Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi and so forth), yelling patriotic slogans at the cars stopped at the lights and flexing their muscles and shit. These idiots were still carrying on, crossing the road, AFTER the lights had turned green, greatly pissing off us motorists.
"News.com hate patriototic Aussies, White Aussies that is, and Roger Franklin loved it when they were apparently intimidated by some Pacific Islanders. I wonder why? He'd probably tell you they are sweet little darlings, when actions speak louders than words and we all know they're violent thugs."
and
"Roger Franklin, you obviously haven't seen the hordes of lebanese, or Maoris that set out for the beach every week. More than likely, you just don't hold them to the same standard you do White people."
Notice that he can't spell "patriotic" right!!!
Hardly the Cronulla style riots that they tried to beat up a couple of days before. I didn't want northern suburb bogans in my home suburb either, (Mordi boy here :)) but 50-70 kids getting loud and taking a fair amount of time to cross the lights is pretty much nothing.
If this was not a beat up why else would they write this http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,... days before? I'm sure Franklin was hoping to get the big scoop on the big nasty riot and all he got to do was write a fluff piece on a bunch of dumb kids.
Pissed kids making trouble? Not a story. Happens all the time.
Pissed kids making trouble while wearing flags? Now THAT'S a story!
Hey o/t do you have halo 3?